Human Rights in America

[Edited by renots on 07-03-2001 at 04:06 PM] __________________ LOL hahahahahah Just wondering where the hell you come up with this stuff? What inspires you to write? __________________ Preach on renots __________________ ...but they suck even more when they take money away from schools and colleges like in california. __________________ renots, all I've got to say...(well I always have a lot to say AND I WILL DAMMIT) is right ON! I agree a 1000% with everything you said. Prisons were the fastest growing private sector of the economy in the 80's and I *think* in the 90's. Why is it that we are locking up more of our population than any country in the world. We are also effectively disenfranchising a whole generation of African-American males because once you commit a felony you cannot vote...ever...again. AND: we have more African-American males in the penal system than in higher ed, so what the f*** is up with that?!? And because prisons are a economic system that constantly needs new "product" to make a profit, we can expect to see the prison population constantly rise if we continue to build more prisons. It sucks, completely and utterly. It's as screwed up a system as we have ever had. We spend the least, of any industrial economy, on pre-natal care, but the most on prisons. We spend the least on programs for the poor and indigent, but the most on the military. Are either of the Pepsi/Coke candidates talking about this stuff, suggesting that maybe we have our priorites wrong, that we can do better? NO! That's why I'm voting Nader, because he does confront these issues. renots: keep up with the good work __________________ We're all Bozos on this bus. we certainly are, we certainly are __________________ Ok, renots - what would you do to solve the prison problem? -OC __________________ We are talking about Criminals, aren't we? __________________ [Edited by renots on 07-03-2001 at 04:06 PM] __________________ I'm not entirely sure I agree with changeing the prison system solely on the merits of disproportionate African-American incarceration. Sorry to disappoint, I'm not going to rail on about how "black are predisposed to crime" or some similarly stupid ****. But I'd love to see the statistics of incarceration between races in similar socioeconomic cohorts. I'd bet you see a much more similar representation, once you take racial profiling etc. into account (which is a law ENFORCEMENT problem, not a judicial problem). A reason there are tons of blacks in prison is that, statistically, they make less, generally live in more economically depressed areas, and crime becomes an increasingly attractive option if you have little. I question whether it's a grand plan to keep the black man down, simply because if it is, it sure is a pretty complicated scheme involving tons of unwitting mopes. As for releasing non-violent criminals, I say: bull****. how many times have guys been picked up on burglary charges, released after their 90 days (or whatever it is for a first time offense) and gone right back out and done it again. There's a large contingent of people that want to be soft on criminals across the board; could it be because the don't have **** to steal? Me, I work pretty hard for my money, and I'll be damned if some guy is going to be repeatedly slapped on the wrist for stealing/vandalizing my stuff. I couldn't care less about drug possession. You steal to get said drugs or do something illegal while under the influence, I couldn't give a **** if you fry. __________________ [ [Edited by renots on 07-03-2001 at 04:05 PM] __________________ [Edited by renots on 07-03-2001 at 04:06 PM] __________________ Quote: Originally posted by renots Burglary with home occupants IS a violent crime[happens less in the US than in europe; so much for 'safer' gun laws]. There seems to be alot of cognitive dissonance going on here PP. If the prisons weren't overflowing with sick people who needed to be treated, then there would be plenty of space to keep the REAL violent criminals who really want to hurt people locked up for as long as they need. i don't think this is as many people as media and politicians have led us to believe Unfortunately what a Crime is and what a criminal traditionally was thought to be don't really match up very well in the modern carnival mirror we know as the Drug War This sounds more like there's a problem with the judicial system than violation of human rights. I have no problems seeing the government taking advantage of REAL criminals. Real criminals take advantage of the system and violate other people's rights in the process, so I have no reason to feel "sorry" for them. However, those who either comminted lesser crimes or those who are actually innocent shouldn't have to suffer and have the government shaft them. But that's the way it goes, there is no "full-proof" method of eliminating this sort of problem with our society. And if there was, it would be expensive for sure. (Analysing inmates, creating seperate enviroments for lesser criminals, etc...) The thing is, Chinese government is much more oppressive than this. Laws are strict and government has a hand on everything. You won't truly appreciate the freedom the US gives their citizens unless you've experienced being oppressed constantly. __________________ Quote: Originally posted by Jihforce I have no problems seeing the government taking advantage of REAL criminals. Real criminals take advantage of the system and violate other people's rights in the process, so I have no reason to feel "sorry" for them. You don't have to feel sorry for them, but by taking advantage of them (and since this is a democracy, when we say "the government" we really mean "us"), you make yourself just as bad and as low as they, which gives you no right to pass judgement upon them. If you want justice to prevail, our judiciary must become a beacon of light illuminating that which is true and just, not a revenge machine out to take advantage of anybody. Its time we aimed higher. Quote: But that's the way it goes, there is no "full-proof" method of eliminating this sort of problem with our society. And if there was, it would be expensive for sure. (Analysing inmates, creating seperate enviroments for lesser criminals, etc...) I have a cheaper solution: 1. Eliminate Federal Law enforcement and Federal prisons 2. Local Police forces should be accountable to the community they serve and ONLY that community! (No heirarchy of leadership to corrupt) 3. Encourage the citizenry to arm themselves and train themselves on using those arms responsibly to defend themselves, their families, and their property. 4 (and most important). Encourage all citizens to communicate with and get to know their neighbors! Quote: The thing is, Chinese government is much more oppressive than this. Laws are strict and government has a hand on everything. You won't truly appreciate the freedom the US gives their citizens unless you've experienced being oppressed constantly. That's no excuse for complacency. Being better than the guy across the fence doesn't relieve us of the responsibility to find ways to improve our society. Complacency didn't get us this far, and it won't get us any further. __________________ I believe it is much easier to speak in general terms than it is to get into details. If you personally knew someone who murder someone close to you or perhaps we a victim at one point or another, you won't feel so "sympathetic" towards criminals. Criminals forfit their rights when they violated other people's rights. That is why they are locked away and withdrawn from society. Criminals are what they are and they are locked away for a reason. If I committed a serious crime, I would expect to have forfited my rights as member of society. Commenting on your suggestions: 1.I do no feel eliminating Federal Law enforcement and prisons solves anything. You'll just have more corruption and psycho's running around free. 2.Local police being accountable for their own community doesn't eliminate corruption. I wouldn't want to be living in a county where people don't have to answer to a higher authority. When you give little people absolute power, they tend to abuse it. 3.Citizenry to arm? I don't trust anyone with a gun that watches Jerry Springer. Needless to say, that's over 50% of the population. 4.I agree with this one, people need to get to know each, it makes it easier to coexist together. It may solve many problems in the long run. One thing I do strongly feel is that the judicial system is flawed. It is run by people who do not want to do what they are paid to do. Judges would much rather have an innocent man admit guilt then to prove his innocence. Why? too much paperwork and according to them, its waste of tax payer's money. Now if we can truly begin to put the "true" criminals behind bars, that would be a good start. And that's ALL I have to say about that. __________________ Quote: Originally posted by Jihforce I believe it is much easier to speak in general terms than it is to get into details. If you personally knew someone who murder someone close to you or perhaps we a victim at one point or another, you won't feel so "sympathetic" towards criminals. Criminals forfit their rights when they violated other people's rights. That is why they are locked away and withdrawn from society. Criminals are what they are and they are locked away for a reason. If I committed a serious crime, I would expect to have forfited my rights as member of society. Don't tell me how I would feel in such a situation. I'm smart enough to know that a judicial system that stresses punishment and incarceration over treatment and community building fails to serve society. It doesn't matter who gets murdered. If it were someone close to me, I'd be more likely to forego the hypocracy of what we call "justice" today and just shoot the bastard myself. I might not be right, but at least I'm not fooling myself into believing that sending him to prison or allowing our current system to deliver "justice" to all is really beneficial to the nation. Quote: 1.I do no feel eliminating Federal Law enforcement and prisons solves anything. You'll just have more corruption and psycho's running around free. Federal law enforcement and the prison system are the most corrupt and corruptible institutions we have! Better to have them psychos free, than to have some uncontrolled entity 2000 miles away determinig who an "enemy of the State" is. Keep law enforcement local and grassroots. That's how you stop corruption. Keep 'em tied to their community, and they'll stay more loyal. Quote: 2.Local police being accountable for their own community doesn't eliminate corruption. I wouldn't want to be living in a county where people don't have to answer to a higher authority. When you give little people absolute power, they tend to abuse it. The deeper the hierarchy, the fewer people making decisions at the top. The fewer people making decisions, the easier it is to corrupt them and corrupt the whole system, top-down style. When you distribute power amongst many, and give absolute power to no one (especially a higher authority), abusive agents tend to get cancelled out. Quote: 3.Citizenry to arm? I don't trust anyone with a gun that watches Jerry Springer. Needless to say, that's over 50% of the population. A gun control nut, huh? Ok, embrace big brother and let the men in Blue take care of you. They know whats best for you, anyway, right? To think that citizens should be capable of defending themselves, or banding together and defending their communities! I suppose we can't trust these idiots to work either. Put 'em all on welfare, and let all the "smart city folk" make the decisions. Quote: 4.I agree with this one, people need to get to know each, it makes it easier to coexist together. It may solve many problems in the long run. It also makes them more willing to reach out and watch each others backs. Its a harsh world. Why must we all go it alone? Quote: One thing I do strongly feel is that the judicial system is flawed. It is run by people who do not want to do what they are paid to do. Judges would much rather have an innocent man admit guilt then to prove his innocence. Why? too much paperwork and according to them, its waste of tax payer's money. Now if we can truly begin to put the "true" criminals behind bars, that would be a good start. And that's ALL I have to say about that. Glad we agree on the grand view. Now if we can just hammer out the details... __________________ we COULD formulate .. compromise.. and form a bunch of G|A ideas... standards... etc etc for things we think are ****ED UP... then we all send em out to congressman... i mean.. that IS the point of us having a representative gov't isn't it? We have ALL stated some pretty good stuff in the last couple of weeks.. and we all have some REALLY GREAT input bout a whole bunch of ****... why not POOL our minds together.. and instead of arguing.. fur the sake of amusement (which is what i do).. why not try to redesign what we feel is WRONG.. and VOICE our opinion.... where shall we start?!